Christine Quinn - The only web conference that really matters. The press has recognized what we recognize. Promise strong tech content, we'll see.
Woman on a scooter under a spotlight doing signing. Tacky. Well, at least they can run the multimedia equipment... that's a tenth of a point over Paris. Oh-ah, Stanford is pretentious, and I'm the president, check out my outrageous accent. Web as a means of achieving immortality - thank you, your first example was a highly defamatory attack!
Mae Jemison - accessability keeps the Web open, allows us to justify keeping it open. Mae had PROFS at NASA, blitzmail at Dartmouth, gave it up because she was too accessable. Why did I think I could get into space when John Carter didn't look anything like me... I mean John Glenn and Scott Carpenter. 60-70% of the problems we face have scientific solutions. Science is I think, I wonder.... We need to build a society of people who can read an article, assess it, and come to a decision... that is what we need more than a lot of physicists. Fan Leibowitz said, not all God's children are beautiful. Jemison says we have to be more innovative than a zero-sum game. Can't keep doors closed because we don't want to let the have-nots slip in. Life isn't a zero-sum game, it is immensely more abundant than that.
Everyone in line to ask a question had some sort of injury... arm, shoulder, eyes: Need to get input from everyone... but how do you make that happen? The only people who are really interested are the techies.
FMEAplus was wierd, not what a computer person would design, but the functional specifications came from the engineers, so it caught on like wildfire, inside and outside the Company. We need to do similar working group meetings to help design the Web so it actually gets used instead of just being a showpiece for systems or marketing.
Tom Kalil - Gov.BS. netday.org, help your local school. genentch has a project to help teach HS biology. BioMOO! Send Kalil challenging email about doing something like Minitel.
Surprisingly, the web consortium talk started late too. Deja vu a la Paris. Oh. Abramatic from Paris is an awdul speaker.
Ran across Dr.Jemison again on my way down. Darn! Just realized I should have gotten my picture taken with her, she is really nice and wanted to make sure I had a copy of the brochure about her Institute. She's a Science Fiction fan, too.
webtagger employs a lattice-based bookmark storage scheme.
displets - argument on how to extend HTML. Want exact layout management, do not want to have to do plugins or modify the browser. Any new HTML tag can be defined, and can call a Java class to display whatever new graphic format or whatever! TAG NAME=chart SRC=chart.class then you can use the CHART tag. Can fall back on standard handling of an existing tag. Syntax and Java support are there. Done in old browser that source is available for.
index based hyperlinks - hyperlinks appropriate for different types of people... people interested in places, people, whales, sailing, english language... every word can be a hyperlink. Polite laughter, but he is absolutely right. Too difficult to do that in HTML. Binding created for every instance of the text. Hyperlinks change if URL changes. Cannot accomodate all possible URLs, because only one URL allowed per hyperlink. Intermediate pages can do, but a list box would be better. URL is of very little use in determining page contents, value. Reader can access only author-created links. Whatever happened to annotation! Reuse hyperlinks from another page in current documents.
Solutions: use tools to auto generate hyperlinks, can be cluttered and inaccurate. Mechanism: browser generates hyperlinks dynamically. This separates policy from mechanism, allows more flexibility. Make the index a first-class object, can share index, reuse. Use it like include files. Can augment hierarchically. Prototype: based in HotJava. Future work: regex, approx matching. Basic thesis seems to be that policy should be on the user side and not forced.
WWW6 Motto: "everything and everyone confused", rob farrell
karen goeller going to realtime video, lunch with juanetta king of bellcore
WWWWidows tshirts Dave Raggett @ Mariott
leading the evolution of HTML - deliberately oversimplified, then presentation tags added on dominated by graphical displays, which threaten accessibility.
Cougar is the next ver of HTML, first draft this summer. Drafts on linking, style sheets, scripting, frames, forms, objects. Objects allow multimedia, graceful fallbacks. Link mechanism specifies more, like language. There are other acceptable styles under Cougar, don't have to use CSS1, might use JavaScript. Media dependencies for style sheets, separate one for printing, speech.
MetaData META and LINK, currently underutilized. Recommendations for Authors, profiles (lexicon of properties) and schemes (subtyping).
Dynamic HTML, Document Object Model use the APIs to get scripts to animate documents.
XML is a clean subset of HTML, coexists, might be mixed in the same document. High-level interoperability.
IETF activities - MHTML, WEBDAV.
HTML Math - Presentation and content markup - capturing meaning and context for automated processing. reflect mathematical context like LISP might. You don't merely want it to look right, you want it to translate right for accessibility (for example, speech). Implemented by embedded elements, WebEQ Java applet. Full implementation requires the object support.
CSS1 - replace all HTML extensions... can not quite do tables, can do everything else. Floating text elements, replaces most tables. Tables cause accessibility probs. Font sizes, background image control. Exactly the same implementation, interoperable across browsers.
Different style sheets, keep HTML the same and have presentation quite different.
Lack of style sheets causes HTML tag abuse, presentational tags, proprietary. CSS does fonts, colors, backgrounds, float.
Bandwidth reduction by getting rid of GIFs, headers footers in future revs.
Future of CSS. Has fallback fonts, will actually see characters. Use a lot of white space, backgrounds on tables, lots of fonts, drop shadows. Tables are still used for positioning.
W3C working group drawn from 160+ member companies, industry experts.
@media = screen, print, projected, aural, braile printing includes headers, footers, margins, crop, keeps the print formatting out of the HTML.
visibility can be used for mouseovers, and the actual content can then be in the document, not take up so much space, and be indexed. Fonts in HTML are bad too. Future CSS does a lot more with fonts.
Downloaded fonts and such would cache, wouldn't they? Can have lots of style without much actual content. You are assumed to be doing content negotiation. Can modify style in one place, affect all your documents. Audio might be important in a car, speech is better than reading a screen while you're driving, industrial hands-free.
Search - AMORE, search that combines text and images from NEC. Harvest for text searching, COIR from NEC for image searching, integrate the two. Rough sketch interface. How about OCR of mechanical drawings, text in images?
softbots + ahoy, the homepage finder... to help people that are not expert in use of the web.. indeces are automatic, have high recall low precision. directories have high precision because the cataloegr looks, lower recall.. machine learning, complementary dada sources. Index finds too much. failures are expensive in time. Learn URL patterns, like where personal pages are likely to be stored. User has to form a specific query. Ight make sense to look for documents marked official, or find some heuristic to do so.
Context from Oracle for finding corporate data.
ParaSite: structured vs text based information retrieval. Mining link information gives very useful results. Very high precision. Deceptive links on the Web. Competition. Info in directory and filenames. Structure tells something, links are informative.
What about dynamically generated pages, databases?
bonniep@mcnc.org get notes on pricing of a web page.
Raj Reddy - CMU - Reinvent the information source, all authored works online. Books, art, music. Business model for how to access. Free if out of copyright or want to become known. Throw away the CDs. Most people do not want to read a whole book online, so online can be free or cheap with a printing charge. 1-2 dollars.
Gordon Bell's vextreme talk on Alan Newell's web page. When will web conference talks be available that way? Put out of print books online... electronic medium costs less than paperback, can afford to do in batches of much less than a thousand. Scan and OCR books, have work study students or third world proof them.
Ship content with self describing data structures, why not digital signature. 2010 1 Terabyte 100 bucks, now 1 Gig 100 bucks. 3K books in a Gig. Don't want to read online, want immediate access, can still print and bind. Amazon.Com shows other people's reading lists.
International coordination, Universal Library... webmaster@ul.cs.cmu.edu
Mike Dertouzous, MIT - 50M computers now, 500M computers by 2007, lots of information work. 9 trillion dollars, half of the work in the world is office work, information as a verb.
Historicopter, nsew, up for future, down for past. get a Sri Lankan doctor, who makes $5 a day, to examine the homeless in SF remotely for little cost. Get local doctor to handle liability.
Electronic bulldozers. Squint, click, load a thousand miles away, 100% brainwork, eyework. Diamond studded shovels. Need to offload low-priority, low intelligence, low level brainwork. Get us to SFO next weekend. Computer figures out how. 6 seconds of brainwork, 6 minutes of computer work. Negotiation... I want 2 metric tons of oranges... in italy, a guy says, anything over a metric ton wake me up. We have a chance of improving office, low level productivity 300%! Intelligent agents, according to Minsky, don't have general intelligence... maker must supply go stupid button... radio that mutes when cellphone comes on is no good if I want someone to hear what just came on on the radio.
Web does proximity now. Good for collaboration, bad for infocrime. Fear of cultural invasion. Crossnational information agreements. China want to block out all offensive News, Junk Email, Web pages... I want to get an account in China so the government there will protect me, enforce caning for spammers. The Switzerland of the 21st century.
The value of a mailing list is the number of encyclopediae you can sell with it. Info is 10% of our economy, 0.1% of Bangladesh economy. This is going to increase disparity. Information has intermediate value, like flour. All filecabinets in SF delivered to you, how much would you pay me not to? All the chocolate... how do I handle and pick valuable filecabinets?
Les Horribles CERNettes did a web music video, you you can click me on the web...
Maintenance, budget 50% of initial for support.
Good Design - consistency, conventions for navigation. Design standards, Lots of argument. Propose internal discussion of this sort. Hot issue, getting hotter. This and CSS1. Designers know paper. A lot of it is crap {people are quoting me}. Animations are bad, possibly as bad as frames. Efficient use of moving images. Task driven, don't get in the way unless you have really good reasons to deviate. Guidance to those 99M designers.
Propose animation standards: only one animation per page, only one iteration per animation.
Content management and metadata for maintainability.
Neilsen - relevance enhanced image reduction, screen size, need to design for a multiplicity of interfaces. WebTV is a warning signal.
Maintainability issue. Single design, no such thing as separate but equal in frames, audio accessibility. need style sheets.
Userbased iterative feedback. User working groups. log analysis. joshp@cnet.com
Hot site of the month is a perfect tool for promoting good design. Encourage people to copy hot sites.
Web Geek Chic - wear diffraction grating sunglasses from 3D talk, turtleneck under your cool t-shirt.
Legacy systems - Intranet focus is changing the marketplace. DB2 can handle URL as a rdb. DataJoiner gets you to Oracle, Informix, IMS. HTML query form goes to DB2 WWW gtwy, goes to Macro File, which is a template, converts html query form to SQL report form. gtwy goes to DB2, web server, data joiner. Simple CGIs. Extremely funky HTML, does server side include (sort of), uses percent for comment. Exploitation of existing business logic in REXX, Java, Perl. Universal thin client. IBM Net.Data interface to do formatting, this part reused by a lot of different IBM products. Can access flat file, native Oracle, ODBC. Maintain state with cookies. DB2 assistant is a client-side editor. Have visual builder for netobjects fusion... basically sounds like they are trying to use this to link every IBM solution together. Even some vague handwaving at Lotus. Earlier statement that it works with all IBM platforms (pc, os/2, aix) so it is open. Polite laughter. Planning encryption before anything passes out of the firewall, provide facilities to carry Net.Data userID and passwd. www.software.ibm.com/data/net.data this product is free as long as you have D2, no intention to make money off of it. Direction appears to be for web server to sit on AIX, talk DDCS or SNA to mainframe. Says you can run web server on mainframe. Used Chrysler and Boeing as examples. OS/390 web server talks to REXX execs, which do DB2 or IMS transactions. Future work, other sources, Java, e-commerce.
Responsive interactine, large, service based app. Optimizing webwriter. WebWriter makes simple apps as hypercards. An HTML editor that runs in a browser. Lousy interactive performance because the bus. logic was all on the server. Use Meteor Shower arch to segment the app.
Tasteful use of blink: to show a blinking cursor at an insertion point with an animated gif.
Load and save are server only. Hide handles is client only, doesn't hit the server at all. Everything related to interface runs on the client, some things shared, very scalable. Disadvantages that you make your intellectual property available. Caching has benefits, but can cause some things to be stale. Java requires that you write your own HTML parser and is fixed size. Plugins are proprietary. Use Javascript for client side logic, takes less time to load.
Metaphorium - Bell Labs. 2-d multimedia interface. New kind of interaction, compelling and rich. Telepresence, not gratuitous graphics. External website to serve as a testbed, host to experimental services.
MessageInABottle with no guarantee of delivery, can be added to and thrown back, SandTypewriter BBS, expires with the tide. Skywriter puts up a message in the sky for everyone for a short time.
www.multimedia.bell-labs.com/metaphorium
Subway browsing mechanism: the point is that you can use any paradigm, any interface. An art gallery really isn't necessarily the best way. real-world metaphors can unify. graphical elements can integrate, very simple techniques.
interactive forms - push the web to its limits. many rely on form input. HTML forms are very limited... OK for cust svc questions,even javascript isn't enough. Big forms hard to integrate, unwieldy, difficult to use. Entering meeting notes, hard to make responsive to user input. Dynamic form version is less cluttered, can expand as necessary. dynamic visibility, section hiding, nesting, can attach java to a field and execute when input occurs. Code representation looks like Java... is Java, compile it as Java applet. C++ precompiler turns the field descr into java class, one for each field type. JavaScript can control with liveconnect. Form submission to CGI script like regular form. Can do background communication with server, store responses in hidden fields. Looks a lot like the new Communicator. Beans version planned.
IIP image.hp.com, roi= region of interest, lots of tiles of different areas, different resolutions, in a pyramid. care when you have really big files, 499 photosmart scanner.
Object Model - characterize it, design transport layer, put OO RPC on it, DCOM or CORBA, write OO interfaces. www.parc.xerox.com/http-ng/ hoping to get w3o involved now, ietf after prototype ready + tested end of 97.
small beard - go from static html to procedural cgi to hypertier, where application has login, state. Thinks the next step is 4-tier client/server. After that, server goes away and objects speak to each other everywhere.
the web is simple, reliable, on-demand. limitations in synchronous, event-response, on-demand again. object model has to be reliable, handle latency, state, be as easy as http / html.
Peter Kessler - Sun - Interface should stay the same, should be able to use different implementation. Objects should control their own marshalling, subcontracts - into CORBA. Repositories of stubs, downloadable, secure, robust. Libraries of evolving protocols.
What about SAM? HotJava does the protocol thing, is it going
Visigenic - IIOP is it according to Andreesen. CORBA spec. Marketing talk. Advantage of Java RMI doesn't require you to program IDLs, IIOP coming out with caffeine to bypass that. better than DCOM because OMG standards body exists, can do in oure Java, more open.
Gage - Microsoft bought WebTV on Sunday. Digital TV link on smith's page at www.research.microsoft.com. Complete change since Java conference last week.
The computer is a desktop, Englebart 1968. the computer is a linked book nelson 81, berners-lee 91. the computer is a conversation, Cafe, Journal, Diplomatic meeting, agora, MUD, MOO.
the fungibility of computers lead to fungibility of code... because of Java.
Oberon is an ideal, can read it all in less than a book. Java claims to be the same height.
Claims that digital signature isn't a very good answer. Afraid MS is right.
No determinate systems anymore. os page about distrib virt machine page.
audio tape cassette developed for the blind.
Bob Metcalfe - internet is the force, telco monopolies are the Empire, and the death star must be destroyed - to Bellcore, trying to get them to join the alliance. If you had the opportunity to touch Bill Gates, wouldn't you use both hands?
killer app for the web is telepresence.
face to face interaction is so important, do it with your families, fibre up our homes and stay there.
network computers increase access on a capitalist basis. Bandwidth is a limiting factor, could use a doubling every 18 months. High priority in ensuring that wide variety have to endure a brutal competitive battle.
Telco,monopoly... www.fcc.gov, May 18 requires ISPs to give discounts, wierd, under deregulation.
Intranets as a good thing, or a futile flight from the collapsing internet.
Metcalfe literally went on to eat his words... the Infoworld column about the collapse of the web went into a blender!
what are you going to eat if we fail to stave off the collapse? metcalfe@infoworld.com.
give bill oo notes, get large site notes
Transcopyright... gives you permission to copy as long as you take the source string, show it in one of two sizes, legally good because it disambiguates. Transclusion means to reuse in an ordered manner by pointing... and both copies know about the other... if the original goes away, automatic fallback to the copy. My past is your future.
Tim Berners-Lee - Enquire within upon everything. Long program name, runs on VAX, type in notes, capture random associations between notes. Circles and arrows, goes to any word (can you still do a # reference that way? Lost PC sources... interdependencies. If one changes, the other should change, or at least author notification. Personal empowerment, augmenting the individual, can we make it just as fun to work with 1-10K people as a few? Exploitation of computing power in real life, actually use it for more than a search, and email with more problems to solve. Easy to sell to HEP community. If data is going to be high quality, it has to be very easy to fix, easy to edit, annotate. Must be able to represent: originated by this guy, a gal fixes the draft, and that guy over there comes up with the answer. Minimal constraint on users, as much flexibility as possible.
Need more format negotiation. Bidirectional links were there, but they don't scale, were thrown out. Hypertext rather than menus and objects... isn't really necessary, just the popular way to do things. URLs change, names don't. People are starting to say 'just look it up on a search engine'. Started out as SGML, but internet more important, so uses RFC822. Readable. Could have used RPC, but good it didn't because of all the argument over which one to use. SGML was the only standard in the hypertext community.
We will get lost in a twisty maze of passages, all alike... hypertext is too confusing, Can be a tree structure!
WWW was a strange phone book, the first step. XML is a real SGML DTD. Tim and NaviPress allowed you to edit without changing modes.
URLs are not filenames. Don't have to put binaries ina a cgi-bin directory, showing underlying.
Markets: web publishing, intranets, electronic commerce, education and training. These provide the reasons for doing the cool things... thing about the things you can get people to use your cool new spec for!
Logical language to communicate "this is an offer for sale of a canoe". Difficult to get there. PICS annotation can work on endorsement in general, is this a reputable canoe dealer, was this canoe UL tested... metadata has generalized info... I want a green canoe that cost less than 5K. IPR, terms & conditions. Competition for push and cache coherence protocols. If I make a document, I have to think ahead of time whether I want to mail, print, pub on web... need web of trust, signature standards, trust language gives me an oh yeah button. Java applets give us the fear factor, and we can actually sign all kinds of things. Signed metadata creates certificate web.
Art of progress - get to long term goals by meeting short term needs. If things are essentially the same (metadata) they need to talk the same protocols, talk to each other.
Goto - Asian language issues. News and Web take off when lang avail. Search engines find wrong thing when looking for name in Thai characters. Need smart translation, content negot. on searches.
www.nw.com lists largest domains
when does each session end???
Structured Documents - XML bootstrap. text consists of content, structure, presentation (graphics, speech, whatever). grok the first two, they are the inputs to the formatter, give it formatting output spec, and get the presentation. separate them, get multiple targets, accessibility, reusability (not just of style sheets, of content) intelligent downstream doc processing, large-scale information management.
Can feed an XML document into a compiler, tell it what to do with each tag you make up, and generate table of contents for free, handle chapter head, summaries in a separate place... all that is done with the style sheet. can just show summaries, jnot show them, same content, very easy. Looks like .MET files that Opron is using can work this way!
HTML is not really structured. Not designed to handle complex data, very large documents.. does not provide a way to validate document data, can't generate nav aids auto, no entity management, which means you can't really have modular reuse.
SGML is the only structured standard. Descriptive, not procedural, left to other parts... and is a metalanguage used to make markup languages for particular purposes. HTML SAE j2008 are DTDs that apply to Ford. The goal of the consortium is to allow generic SGML to be served, recieved, and processed on the web. SGML is too big and complex. Threw out about 80% of the language. part 1 of the XML spec, the Red Book, is much simpler. Fully extensible, don't have to wait for w3c, deep structure, full validation on basis of DTDs. XML vastly simpler, easier to implement, design formal and concise, can use lex and yacc on it. DTD is optional. white book is alpha of part 2, based on HyTime concepts. Phase 3 is a style sheet mechanism compat with CSS1.
XML provides a more complex set of tools than HTML for serious applications. Database interchange: we can drag and drop a database icon from one database to another, different servers can automatically exchange data using the HTTP protocol, EDI. Web agents, the 500 channel TV guide.
Tim Bray, OpenText, hyperlinking - linking element in XML asserts existence of a link. XML-LINK = SIMPLE, EXTENDED, or LOCATOR. Simple is one direction, points at one thing. Extended has any number of locators it points to. Each locator has a role, label, and how to show it. SHOW=new does the standard web thing in new window, REPLACE does the normal web thing, EMBED puts it in the current document (like HTML does for IMG). ACTUATE=auto like an IMG tag or SSI. Can also do user defined behaviour.
Locators can only do simple stuff going to html docs. hashmark in XML gets the whole document, question mark just gets that section, vertical bar lets client and server negotiate. a27 Is a normal tag, ID(a27) HERE is the linking element, CHILD DESCENDENT, etc.
Careful not to mess with semantics, but have to deal with stylesheet, programmatic approaches (java other). CSS has easy syntax, good match for HTML, good match for simple XML, runs out for really complex XML. Embedded CSS style attributes can be generated from a database. CSS cannot grab an item from one place and use it in another place. no sibling relationships. no generated text (page numbers). DSSSL syntax derived from LISP, real programming language. Presenter admits that it looks really scary, and it is. DSSL designed for foreign langs, allows change bars on side, variable column formats, floaters like footnotes, commentary that has to synch with other columns. www.jclark.com/jade renders DSSL.
the red book was generated as a single source XML document, generated richly linked online version and printed version, can generate RTF version, whatever.
Englebart - Objective: high performance organizations. Automobiles cause a huge change in the human system, the way we harness that. Computers can augment people, in what office work they can do. Approach focuses on the capability infrastructure, strategic target is faster improvement cycles. Collaboration and reuse are good targets for improving the collective IQ of the organization. Intranet challenge is putting concurrent information up, keeping it up to date. McDonald Douglas bought it, decided you can't have wide variations in documents. In engineering, you need a URL that will get design information off a CAD drawing, go to design specs, extent of interoperability has to move. Need to work very closely with first-tier suppliers... maybe only 200 of them, 6K total companies you might have to work with.
Open Hyperdocument System is a critical missing link. Have to curtail links if you don't know that a document is going to be changed so that your link is no longer appropriate.
Augment does shared files, inherently structured hierarchichally. Shared screens have a big impact on training and hard projects. Email. Library - I wish somebody would work on a Journal library with a catalog, will go get it for you, guaranteed you get the right info. Then you can just have a sentence with three links, rather than explaining your whole idea. Can't make a knowledge base grow without it, and the Bootstrap Institute really wants to talk to anyone who will do it. Need it to be there 20 years, still.
Catalog external docs, have primitive backlink recording, so you can see who is talking about you, turns it into a 2-way dialog. Change occuring so fast there is no way to learn slowly, have to push these org changes. What are the best targets for change? Boost a small group of people, expand them outward and deploy to the rest of the organization. Ford w3o HAS to take advantage of this.
Conference gave him no idea of how long the talk was. Took 5 mins to get a screen he asked for back up.
The written spec has to really track the the design. Has to be a living document. If it isn't communicated solidly in the spec, the engineering team can't do what they are supposed to do.
Can't just port code to the Web. Good design on the Mac doesn't work, big network issues. Spend a lot of money doing design.. you can fit it through the door a lot easier, reuse it a lot easier if you cut it up first, modular code.
First do blue sky, then come back down to earth and do a realistic design, then put it up on the wall with pen and sticky note. A lot of the learning went on in guest testing, intuitive for the designer is not intuitive for the user.
Issues; lack of robust testable interface, time estimates were always wrong, takes longer, lack of standards, need a better tool for showing time standards, build a model of how long it takes to accomplish a task. Standards database that learns what the issues are for Ford, or for an organization, and then helps you with it online. Even with a paper prototype designers tend to be unwilling to accept input and change. Maybe videotape of user using a system (I like the idea of functional spec more). KISS not implemented at first. Stick to the requirements, less interface is more effective. Fancy designs lead to fancy prices, designers have to talk to programmers, have to be able to look at prototypes and test. Feedback is important, even code reviews. Make usability failures severity 1. Do frontend design rather than a big help system. FUN - functional, usable, needed.
CSS- Object model in IE allows motion by constant growing and shrinking of the font size. OnMouseOver stuff to change style and text actually looks really decent.
Absolute positioning allows you to flow text, do the stuff Netscape Layers tag does, no need to use LAYERS. Static positioning is default. Relative positioning is mainly useful with the object model. Visibility allows only one of several elements to be visible. z-index controls stacking order. More creative control, dynamic, scripted content.
If users are aware of underlying protocol factors, they can take advantage of diffs, get real performance improvements, opportunities for optimization.
www-style email list
@media print can't do numbers.
pagebreak before, after.. auto, always, l, r. no new tags, legacy data, other page-based presentations. H1 (page-break-before: right) page boxes - size, margins, crop marks, cross marks new LINK rel=alternate media=print type=mime/type href=file.ps
killer app for typed links, like an index that comes up automatically on the left, gets rid of the need for frames.
marc andreesen's annotation server disk filled up, now have PICS and can do that in a distributed way.