rec.crafts.knots FAQ

Table of Contents

1. Netiquette
2. Books
3. Periodicals
4. Organizations
5. Internet Resources
6. Sources for things
7. Where can I find...?
8. Miscellaneous questions
9. Contributors

Table of Contents


1. Netiquette in rec.crafts.knots (r.c.k)

   The usual standards of newsgroup netiquette apply in rec.crafts.knots. We suggest reading the group for a while before your first posting to see what sort of posts are common here. The usual rule of no-binaries (picture files, programs, etc.) applies. If you have a graphic file to share with the group, place it at a FTP or WWW (Web) site available to you and post an article in the group that describes where interested people may look for it. As a last resort, post it to one of the alt.binaries... groups (there are some general purpose a.b... groups) and post your pointer in r.c.k; we suggest putting 'KNOT' in the Subject to enable others to find it easily.
   If you are unable to place a graphics file related to a posting in rec.crafts.knots at your own or a friend's Web or FTP site, you may be able to arrange temporary hosting from some other person who has an interest in knots. See Resources below.
   
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2. Books

   Please send entries
   
   
   1. The Ashley Book of Knots by Clifford W. Ashley
      Doubleday (1944) $45; in its 35th printing
      This is the "must-have" book of knotting. Ashley's lucid style, clear drawings, background materials, and comprehensive coverage make this the book from which to learn knot tying. [pwm]
      
      
   2. Symmetric Bends: How to Join Two Lengths of Cord by Roger Miles, Autumn 1995, 150 pages (16 pages of color photos) US$32, £22 World Scientific Publishing Co., Inc., http://www.wspc.co.uk 1060 Main Street, River Edge, NJ 07661, USA FAX: 201-487-9656 Phone 800-227-7562
      
      This book received a well-deserved glowing review by Lester Copestake in the Dec issue of Knotting Matters. I haven't finished reading it as yet, but have spent several happy hours confirming his lattice diagrams. Some of the topics covered by Roger Miles are: Elementary Symmetric Bends, Geometry and Plannar Representations, Topological Conciderations and a Theorem, Practical Considerations and Triple Symmetry, Sixty (60!) Symmetric Bends (diagrams and colored photos of each) and How to Invent Symmetric Bends.
      
      The book provides a layman's window into the mind-bogling mathematics that has evolved out of knot theory (and won a Field's Medal (Nobel-eqiv) in 1990 for Vaughan Jones). Dyslectic knot tyers will love this book, as the diagrams and photos are word-less.[dbl] Additional description is at: http://www.wspc.com.sg/books/mathematics/2686.html.[pg]
      
      
   3. Forget Me Knots by Karl Rohnke, 1992, ISBN 0-8403-7138-1
      Kendal/Hunt Publishing Company
      2460 Kerper Blvd.
      P.O. Box 539
      Dubuque, IA 52004-0539
      
      This 67 page, spiral-bound handbook is designed for aspiring young climbers: "a gentle reminder of the knots, ropes and lore used on a challenge rope course." Safety and security are the theme in this fun-book. The illustrations by Plynn Williams include a couple of corner-series which animate the rope on its way to becoming a knot as you riffle through the page corners (a poor man's Quick-time movie for the computer-deprived). Interestingly, this book says nothing about bends, probably because of legal implications.[dbl]
      
      
   4. The History and Science of Knots edited by J C Turner (Univ. Waikato) & P van de Griend (Aarhus Univ.); May 1996; ISBN 981-02-2469-9; US$78 / £54
      A collection of essays with sections on the prehistory and antiquity, non-European traditions, working knots, the developing science of knots, and decorative and other aspects of knots. A more complete description is at: http://www.wspc.com.sg/books/mathematics/2940.html. [pg]
      
      
   5. The Klutz Book of Knots by John Cassidy; 1985; ISBN 0-932592-10-4
      Klutz Press, Palo Alto, California [rp]
      This spiral bound book shows step by step how to tie 24 useful hitches, ties, wraps and knots. It comes with practice cord and has thick stiff pages with holes and slots for practicing the knots right next to its drawings.
      
      
   6. The Knot Book by Geoffrey Budworth; 1985; ISBN 0-8069-7944-5
      Published by Sterling Publishing Co., Inc. New York
      This is a paperback book of about 100 knots chosen for their usefulness. This book is distinguished by its well drawn illustrations, well conceived text and scarcity of errors. Although the author is one of the foremost authorities on knots, he also includes knowledge from other high achievers on this subject. [rp]
      
      
   7. The Morrow Guide to Knots by Mario Bigon and Guido Regazzoni, translated by Maria Piotrowska; 1982; ISBN 0-688-01226-4
      William Morrow and Company, Inc. ( American edition; Italian original 1981).
      This 255 page paperback contains about 80 knots covering a variety of uses. Its unique features include 647 color photographs, multiple ways to tie the bowline and various gems not usually found in a book this size. The photos are laid out with great care to illustrate the knot tying process. [rp]
      
      
   
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3. Periodicals

   1. Het Knoopeknauwertje -- a Dutch knotting magazine. For more details e-mail: Pieter van de Griend <vdgriend@euronet.nl>
      An online, English language version of Het Knoopeknauwertje [pg]
   2. The Australian Whipmaker -- Australian; AU$36 for overseas members; see AWPO under Organizations for address. [pg]
   
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4. Organizations

   1. IGKT -- International Guild of Knot Tyers
      (need detailed info for this item)
   2. IGKT:NAB -- International Guild of Knot Tyers: North American Branch
      
      • International Guild of Knot Tyers: North American Branch - info [pwm]
      • International Guild of Knot Tyers: North American Branch - application [pwm]
   3. AWPO -- The Australian Whipmakers and Plaiters Organization [pg]
      12 Faireyland Road
      Kuranda
      Queensland 4872 Australia
      phone: (070) 937474
      fax: (070) 514484
      
   
   
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5. Internet Resources

   1. International Guild of Knot Tyers (these don't seem to be getting updates) [dbo]
   2. International Guild of Knot Tyers: North American Branch (these don't seem to be getting updates) [dbo]
   3. International Guild of Knot Tyers: North American Branch - info [pwm]
   4. International Guild of Knot Tyers: North American Branch - application [pwm]
   5. International Guild of Knot Tyers: Texas Branch [gcs]
   6. Army Field Manual on rigging; in-progress (sometimes not available); contains sections on ropes, knots, splices and more; opening page is reasonably sized, but chapters are large. [ep]
   7. Knot Books on the Web: WWW references to books. [ep]
   8. Ropers Knot Page [ep]
   9. Ropers Knot Links [ep]
   10. Suber's Knots on the Web [ps]
   11. Animated Knots -- from a UK Scout troop [df]
   12. International String Figure Association -- from cat's cradle on up [pg]
   13. Jack Keene's list of links to web pages with Rope and Knot Strength information. [jk]
   14. If you are unable to provide a web or FTP site for a graphics file related to a posting in rec.crafts.knots, you may be able to arrange for temporary hosting from someone listed here. Send them mail to ask how they want to set it up.
       • Peter Suber <peters@earlham.edu>
         have a look at Peter's Gallery to find out how to submit an image file.
   
   
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6. Sources

   1. The Knot Shoppe Supplies: para cord in different colors.
   2. Foodrope Knots: Books on knotting. [ep]
      Des & Liz Pawson
      501 Wherstead Road
      Ipswitch, Suffolk, IP2 8LL
      
   
   
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7. Where Can I Find...?

   1. What are the best sources/references for engineering data on ropes and knots?
      For several years, I have been looking for raw data on breaking strengths and creep rates under steady and cyclic loads. There must be a government agency (or several) concerned with rope and knot standards (e.g., parachute bureau), but I haven't found one.[dbl]
   2. Where can I find a particular knot on the Web Ropers Knot Index [ep]
   
   
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8. Miscellaneous Questions

   I've heard that many knot books have errors in them. Why is that and how do I find a book without errors?

   Knot books sometimes have errors because the books the author referenced have errors. The most common error is misnaming, though sometimes the illustrations or the recommended uses are incorrect, which can be dangerous. The books reviewed on this page are generally reliable, and other knotting web sites sometimes include book reviews.[rp]
   
   

   I keep seeing ABOK mentioned. What does that mean?

   Ashley Book Of Knots. It is usually followed by a number to indicate a particular knot in his book.[rp]
   
   

   What is a good book for beginners to learn knotting who don't want to learn a squizzilion knots?

   The Klutz book of Knots reviewed in this FAQ is an excellent book with only 24 knots.[rp]
   
   

   I have heard that the square knot (also called the reef knot) can be dangerous, is that true?

   Yes, It should never be used as a bend (to connect two pieces of rope for the purpose of making a longer rope). This knot often slips when used this way and has caused injuries and deaths.[rp]
   
   

   Why would someone want to learn knots when bungee cords and straps are so easy to use?

   A length of rope and the knowledge of a few knots make for infinitely versatile connections and lashings. It's never a bad idea to have some around to fill in for when the bungees and straps are too awkward or wrong for the job.[rp]
   
   

   Why would someone want to learn to put whipping on a rope when you can just use tape?

   There are many activities where it helps to know whipping, like the increasingly popular practice of making and fixing your own fishing poles, or for decorative reasons.[rp]
   
   

   Why do I always see fishing knots include their strength, but not other knots?

   Fishing is usually done with line of very limited strength (especially in competitions) and the goal is to use knots that weaken it as little as possible. For most non fishing uses, a few percentage points of strength is not as important as security, being untied easily or whatever else your job may require.[rp]
   
   

   How can you get a knot to hold in these new slippery synthetic ropes? Don't they just come undone?

   Sometimes knots come loose because they were not worked down correctly. All knots must be worked down snug and proper for maximum reliability. It is also important to choose the correct knot for the job. Knots should be tested to see when they hold, slip or jam when tied in different ropes. Other options include securing the working end with a half hitch, overhand or multiple overhand knot, or seizing.[rp]
   
   

   What does IGKT mean?

   The International Guild of Knot Tyers. The IGKT is open to anyone interested in knotting (whether expert or simply hoping to learn from others). For more information see their web pages in the Internet resources section above.[rp]
   
   

   I sometimes see safety warnings about some knots, especially concerning children, why is that?

   Loop knots that slip make dangerous nooses. Children like to play hangman with slip loops. There have been many deaths as a result. Toddlers like to put things around their neck and have even died from playing with mini blind cord. Many parents cut mini blind cords short so that young children cannot reach them.[rp]
   
   

   When I was young I remember a relative who used to tie a really useful knot. Is there anyway I could find out what that was?

   Many knot books organize the knots by use, or include a table listing them that way. If you can remember how or what the knot was used for that might help your search.[rp]
   
   

   I know there is more than one way to tie a tie, but where do I find out how?

   The general knot pages listed above have a number of links to instructional pages for tying ties.[rp]
   
   

   Every time I try and carry furniture or boxes on the top of my car, they have to call out the national guard to help clean up the mess on the highway. Is there a good way to secure something like that?

   Though it is never recommended to carry items on top of a car with no roof rack, many people do it. (I have, but don't tell anybody.) The way it's usually done is to make a small loop in one end of a rope and run the other end through the inside of the car while the doors are open (but not through the windows) , and then over the items on top and back through the small loop. If the resulting wrap is pulled tight with a truckers hitch the items on the roof will be pulled tightly down on the roof (though not necessarily securely). You may want to run more than one of these loops. When the doors are closed the lines will be pulled even tighter. The cargo should also be secured with ropes to the front and back bumpers if possible.[rp]
   
   

   Half the time I see someone using a tarp on the highway, it looks like a wreckage scene from the movie Waterworld. Why is that?

   A tarp under wind pressure suffers the forces of a net, airplane wing and a whip all at once. Care should be taken to keep it from behaving like a flag or a kite. All the corners should be tied down so that it cannot be move in any direction. Extra crossing ropes would not be a bad idea, and all cargo underneath should be secured independently of the tarp, to keep the tarp from having to do the job of a net. Since it is easy to underestimate the forces of wind on a tarp, highway travelers will continue to entertain (or frighten) us.[rp]
   
   

   Why does it seem that for some knots nobody can agree on a name?

   Use by different hobbies, professions, languages and cultures make multiple names for some knots inevitable. Some people use the number of the knot in Ashley's book (ABOK ###) to clarify communications.[rp]
   
   

   How can I tell if a knot is safe and can hold a load?

   Always practice with and test a knot before trusting it. Working a knot down to its proper snug form is just as important as tying it correctly. Also, remember that many knots will reduce the breaking strength of rope to about 40% to 60%. [rp]
   
   

   How long have people been using knots.

   Egyptians used them, Vikings used them, and according to knot historian and researcher Pieter van de Griend, they are "man's oldest technological achievement, possibly even predating the discovery of fire."[rp]
   
   

   How many knots are there and can you patent them?

   Many books say there are about 4000 in the literature, probably because Clifford Ashley has nearly that many in his knot book. There are actually infinitely many variations. You can't patent a knot but Clifford Ashley said he patented # 3028 in his book, which is a sinnet (braided cordage).[rp]
   
   

   If you think you have discovered a new knot but you are not sure, how do you find out?

   Because so much knotting knowledge is lost to history, you may never know for sure. But the first step for most people is to see if it is in Ashley's book (See book review section above). If it isn't and you're still curious, post a link to a picture of it on this newsgroup. Their are some very knowledgeable knot tyers who monitor rec.crafts.knots. Also, one of the reasons for the establishment of the International Guild of Knot Tyers is to serve as an authoritative body for consulting purposes. [rp]
   
   

   What is the best knot?

   People can be very opinionated about knots. But it's good to remember that a knot that is good for one purpose is not necessarily good for another. Many experienced knot tyers never cease to try out new discoveries and update their repertoire.[rp]
   
   

   What is the worst knot?

   There are many opinions about this too so here's mine; use a square knot to hang your bait bucket over the pier and you will be watching it float away.[rp]
   
   

   I get lost half the time when I am trying to follow a knot diagram, what can I do?

   Some people work better from written directions than from diagrams, so you might try that. Here are some other tips: try a different book, try a different web page, try making other knots of similar type, try different rope or cord, try pinning the rope on a cork board, try photocopying and enlarging the diagram, try turning the diagram in a different direction, try drawing it yourself, ask someone to help you in person and last but not least -- ask for help from rec.crafts.knots. [rp]
   
   

   Does it take 4 years of post doctorate work to learn how to do a good looking splice like you see on dock ropes?

   Eye splicing is simple but some book diagrams and descriptions are tricky to learn from. Try some of the tips from the previous question. [rp]
   
   

   If a rope has a sheath, how can you tell if the center might be damaged?

   There is no easy way to be sure so if you suspect it is damaged it should never be used for climbing or rescue. One test is to tie its length under tension and feel for defects.[rp]
   
   

   What ever happened to cotton rope and where can I find some?

   Many of the uses for cotton rope are being handled admirably by synthetic ropes. Still it is the rope of choice for magicians and horseman, so you might try their shops. Magicians remove the core of cotton braid to facilitate sliding knots. Cotton rope is less likely to "burn" when pulled through the hands and prevents rope burns if a horse should get tangled when tied. It also makes a spiffy dog chew.[rp]
   
   

   I've heard that some animals can tie knots, is that true? And if so, are any of them members of the IGKT.

   Gorillas tie grannies and square knots to hold saplings down in their nests. The hagfish ties itself in an overhand knot, and the weaver bird ties a number of knots. I didn't see any animals listed in the membership handbook, but the IGKT is open to anyone interested in knotting (whether expert or simply hoping to learn from others). [rp]
   
   

   A neighbor of mine puts half a dozen extra twists and loops and half knots on his knots when he secures gear in his pickup. He says that it is necessary to make it secure. Is that true?

   No. It will just make it impossible to untie in a hurry if he needs to. The same applies to people who "bury the cleat" when docking a boat; they must assume there will never be a dock fire.[rp]
   
   

   A friend of mine always pulls out a lighter and starts torching whenever he finishes a knot. Is that necessary?

   Some people like to flame the working end of a knot after it is finished to swell up the end in the hope that it won't pull back into the knot. It is more important to use the correct knot and work it down properly. If that's not enough maybe another knot should be used.[rp]
   
   

   Nylon 3-strand rope unravels at just short of the speed of light. What gives?

   Nylon is a slippery material and although it's stable in 3-strand form, it will unravel easily if the ends are not whipped, taped or otherwise secured. One trick for cutting it neatly is to tape the spot you want to cut first, and then cut in the middle of the tape. Then you will automatically have two taped ends.[rp]
   
   

   I am usually concerned about knots being secure but I have heard that some knots are stronger than others. Is that important?

   Synthetic ropes are very strong. It's common to use a rope much stronger than needed just to be thick enough to "get a grip." If you are using a knot that is correct for a given purpose then other knots will probably not be more than 10% or 20% stronger. Splicing however can be 40 to 100% stronger than some knots.[rp]
   
   

   Every time I put a knot under a load, I can never get the &#*!! thing untied. Isn't their a better way?

   Knots vary in how easily they untie after being stressed. For example; the bowline unties easily after a load, but the double half hitch can be ornery. Many knots are still secure when the last tuck is with the end folded over, like in shoelaces. This can make release much easier. Many knots known for their quick release abilities behave poorly under a load -- the highwayman's hitch can give way, the mooring hitch can jam. [rp]
   
   

   I found your FAQ page, but I can't find your newsgroup on my server. What gives?

   Different systems need different solutions. Some people have attained access through DejaNews at http://www.dejanews.com/ [rp]
   
   

   I have heard that there is a computer program that makes knots. Is that true?

   Yes, it's called KnotPlot and it makes astounding images and performs many mathematical operations on knots. There are several links to it on pages referenced from this page.[rp]
   
   

   A friend told me that nobody uses knots on a sailboat anymore, is that true?

   No, there are four or five knots that are used regularly plus many more for special tasks and emergencies.[rp]
   
   In a recent, informal survey on the newsgroup rec.boats.cruising, asking about the necessary knots for the recreational sailor, boaters submitted 20 useful knots.
   
   By far the most frequently mentioned (3 to 5 responses each) were the square (reef) knot, clove hitch, figure 8, bowline, sheet bend, and rolling hitch. Buntline hitch, alpine butterfly, and round turn and two half hitches each got 2 votes, while mentioned only once were Ashley's bend, overhand, constrictor, carrick, monkey chain, cleat hitch, monkey's fist, prusik, bowline on a bight, double sheet bend, and trucker's hitch.
   
   (Amazing, not one anchor bend or becket bend, yet virtually every book of boater's knots features these!)[dh]
   
   

   How do you get out a knot that is jammed?

   I have leveraged some open with a Marlinespike, but if all else fails, try rec.knives.[rp]
   
   

   I know that I am tying my fishing knots right, but they still break too often. What's happening?

   When a knot is pulled down in fishing line it saws harshly against itself. If it is not wetted it will cut itself badly and then break under light strain. Also, you might want to test if the line is brittle by tying an overhand knot in it and seeing how easy it breaks (if the line is OK it should hold to about 50% line strength).[rp]
   
   

   Where can I find some games for my boy scout troop to play that involves knots?

   Many knot books have a recreational section in them. There are also many scout links on some of the pages referenced on this page.[rp]
   
   

   I can read postings on the newsgroup, but I can't seem to post anything.

   DejaNews has a search engine for computer and technical questions at: http://www.dejanews.com/[rp]
   
   

   I was reading a message on the rec.crafts.knots newsgroup, but now it won't show it.

   Some news browsers will not show a message again after it has been marked "read". In Netscape 2 and 3, you can chose "show all messages" from the Options menu. Also, see question above. Sorry Peter, I haven't had a chance to look up the menu Items on MSIE yet.[rp]
   
   

   I'm concerned that if I post to a newsgroup, I will get a lot of junk mail. Is that true?

   I received a couple of junk emails (spam) soon after joining rec.crafts.knots, but not enough to be a bother. The worst newsgroup for getting spam is news.admin.net-abuse.email ...since the spammers troll it for revenge. Some people put the letters NOSPAM in their return email address. That way other newsgroup members can still contact you by taking out these letters, but some automatic engines for collecting email addresses from newsgroups will be fooled.[rp]
   
   

   I heard that everybody likes knot puns. If I hear a new one should I post it?

   Try alt.humor.puns. But if you think it is so good that knot tyers MUST see it, then maybe post a link to it instead of posting it directly so there will not be any unintended victims (no pun intended).[rp]
   
   

   
   
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9. Contributors to the FAQ

   [dbl]

   Dick Blackmer <easy@wizvax.net>

   [dbo]

   David Bowie <dbowie@webshirt.com>>

   [df]

   Doug Fry <br816@freenet.toronto.on.ca>

   [dh]

   Dwight Hall <dwihall@ix.netcom.com>

   [ep]

   Ed Prins <erpprs@dds.nl>

   [gcs]

   Gary Sessions <gcsessions@netgazer.net>

   [jk]

   Jack Keene <knotter@juno.com>

   [pg]

   Pieter van de Griend <vdgriend@euronet.nl>

   [ps]

   Peter Suber <peters@earlham.edu>

   [pwm]

   Peter W. Meek <pwmeek@mail.msen.com>

   [rp]

   Randy Penn <rlpenn@gte.net>

   
   
   

Suggestions for entries needed